The following is the transcript of our interview of February 21, 1992. We began the conversation by talking about a Jewish friend of Lady Birdwood’s. She was not totally anathema to all Jews, in spite of her universally bad press. If I recall correctly, he phoned her just before we started taping our conversation. In 1994, after her second conviction, he persuaded a Jewish newspaper to publish an interview with her which to its credit was surprisingly balanced, and in which the Lady herself came across very well. (86)

I asked her about her Jewish friend, and she replied thus:

Lady Birdwood: I don’t know who he works for, but he pops up every now and then, invites me to the ballet or something.

AB: Is he Orthodox?

LB: I’ve never enquired.

AB: Since our last meeting I’ve dug out this Snides of March leaflet, I’ve also procured a copy of Four Small Candles, and I’ve got something else here which may have been something to do with this. It’s called Jews: The Verdict of History.

LB: That’s been circulating for a long time.

AB: That wasn’t one of yours?

LB: No. I may be wrong but I think that originated in America. I got that impression.

AB: They all seem to have similar typefaces. What do you think of this leaflet?

LB: You can quote them but if you do, the chances are that your confidant has never heard of them.

AB: Not very pleasant is it? It’s got lots of nasty quotes, and it’s not the sort of thing that I should imagine that you would wish to distribute or even be associated with.

LB: We do feel pretty sore about this sort of thing but it’s proof.

AB: Proof of what, exactly?

LB: It’s proof that they always were disliked for usury or whatever.

AB: For usury?

LB: For usury and for interfering with the lives of other people. You see in my view they live like leeches on the backs of the world. I mean it. It doesn’t mean I hate them, I’m just saying this because I believe it to be true.

AB: Okay, let’s take this quote from Seneca which was made circa 4BC.

LB: Well I wasn’t around then.

AB: The world was a very different place then; the way people lived was vastly different from the way they live today.

LB: Yes.

AB: You say the Jews lived and live like leeches. What do you mean by that?

LB: Well, you know they live on the backs of other people I think. Their country is a very small one, they can’t run their own economy, it’s shocking, and they have to lean on America and other countries for their survival. Look what happens when ten billion is held back as it was recently by George Bush. (87)

AB: What happens?

LB: Well, they’re in a terrible state, Israel. Without being a Jew-hater or baiter, in order to discuss this you have to be aware of what has gone on before. Why does history repeat itself?

AB: Because people forget it. (88)

LB: There are about twelve examples of people being pushed out of different countries all over the world. In the end, all this coagulates. And one’s own experience in 1992 isn’t really much better.

AB: Let me draw an analogy: the Jew is the parasite roaming from country to country living off the backs of other people, all right? On the other hand, the whites, who throughout the 19th Century colonised Africa, and before that North America, they were the magnificent, conquering, civilising race who subjugated all inferior peoples before them, tearing their lands away from them...sounds like a little bit of hypocrisy there to me.

LB: That’s a hideous remark to make; there isn’t any parallel whatsoever. We went, certainly we went to India, but there were never more than twenty thousand, you see. So the difference...I had a black man come up to me raging about slavery about this country and our colonials. And I said to him: Just a minute, your ancestors were no better than mine because yours brought their fellow tribesmen down to the ships and held out their hands, for money.

AB: Right – your ancestors were no better than mine. In other words there were both negative and positive aspects to colonialism. Nowadays only the negative aspects of colonialism and so-called Imperialism are stressed, but there was a very positive aspect to it.

LB: Very much so, I mean we raised water, we raised oil, we built the railway for them. I was present at the very first election in India. I was in the school and watched the whole thing. Now you may say that they didn’t want it, they didn’t like it, but the fact remains that they still go on with it. They regard it as going forward, they must. And when say Nigerians and Ghanaians come to this country, they’re looking for a better life. They do prefer the better life; I would say that some of these poorer nations may prefer to be exactly as they are.

AB: What I mean is that the whites have exerted both positive and negative effects on history. Surely you are not saying that the Jews have exerted only a negative effect, that they’ve never done anything decent throughout history?

LB: I wasn’t alive all those years ago; I don’t know of individual deeds of greatness, they haven’t been recorded, that’s all I can say, but they tell me that they are very clever, their scientists, that their musicians are very, very fine artists, yes they are, but so are Gentiles.

AB: That is the point of it: it was the Jews who gave us stack it high and sell it cheap.

LB: This is economics and I don’t like their economics at all.

AB: You don’t like usury?

LB: No I don’t. Everybody’s in a terrible mess now because they were advised to take up mortgages, buy homes, buy this, buy the other. We in this country were never keen on becoming very wealthy. (89)

AB: When I [said] stack it high and sell it cheap, I was referring to commerce rather than economics; there’s a big difference.

LB: I suppose there is but I’m not an expert on anything to do with money or commerce.

AB: A lot of this stuff here [Jews: The Verdict of History] Voltaire etc., you wouldn’t approve of it.

LB: I don’t say I don’t approve of it.

AB: You wouldn’t distribute it?

LB: I would rather distribute this than be violent; I don’t approve of violence, but this is just repeating what has been done before.

AB: On the back of this leaflet are quotes such as Jews on Christians – and all other non-Jews backed up with selected quotes from the Talmud...

LB: That’s why I passed on the leaflets.

AB: There are quotes here such as “God has given the Jews power over the possessions and blood of all nations.” and “It is always a meritorious deed to get hold of a Gentile’s possessions.”

LB: Yes.

AB: Aren’t these quotes very selective?

LB: Yes, of course, but if you’re quoting about them you’re bound to be selective, you can’t help it.

AB: But doesn’t the Talmud say other things, more positive things?

LB: I do think you ought to take a look at it, you really ought to.

AB: Is it all like that?

LB: No, it’s not all like that, [but] to be perfectly honest, it’s so pornographic it’s dreadful, dreadful. And it goes on and on, it says something and it goes back and says it again.

AB: Coming back to this leaflet, it’s got things here about the Guinness affair and “The existing Jewish pornography empire of decadent filth.” I don’t see any Jewish pornography empire of decadent filth. I see maybe Jews involved in pornography, but I don’t see a disproportionate number of them. (90)

LB: Well, there are supposed to be about three hundred thousand of them here, and you do notice the other day I think it was Norwood where a whole colony of Jews there, and the children have been very badly abused. I think this was on the front cover of the JC. (91) And there’s this thing digging going in Dalston. (92)

AB: They weren’t Jews, this ring of paedophiles.

LB: No they’re not, not all of them, but some of them are. And you notice about that trial of that boy Jason. (93) And there is a feeling here that something’s wrong, that there is a lot of abuse of children, and I thought that case up at Stamford Hill, that trial up there of that woman was abysmal. (94) The thing was [that] it was a shocking case.

AB: But both the accused and the alleged victim were Jews.

LB: But the case itself was so bad.

AB: You don’t think this was just a case of common or garden sexual abuse? (95) Can we return to this leaflet, The Snides of March? (96) I haven’t looked at it for a while, but now that I think about it, it’s quite witty. I think if it were to be published in some tasteless quasi-pornographic adult comic like Viz it would be viewed simply as extremely bad taste.

LB: It’s satire, of course.

AB: I’ll concede that, but it’s obvious that the person who wrote this is an anti-Semite.

LB: I like it [satire], I thought it was very well written and of course the reason I disliked it first of all when I read the first page and there’s all this dredging up what happened 800 years ago.

AB: The only part that does rather go over the top is the reference to the unsolved child abductions. That’s a bit nasty.

LB: Well, you know this woman Oprah Winfrey. (97) She brought an American woman onto the television, and this woman said that she had personally witnessed the slaughter of a baby boy by the Jews.

AB: That’s lies. (98)

LB: Well, she was brought onto the television; she shouldn’t do it if it’s lies.

AB: I have a book at home called In Pursuit Of Satan which discusses these cases of alleged Satanic child abuse. (99) All these stories about ritual murder and child Satanic abuse are complete fabrication[s].

There are people who claim that fifty thousand people a year disappear off the streets in America. A similar claim was made that in Britain, four thousand babies a year are bred for the purpose of Satanic abuse. (100) Recently I spoke to a police office about that and he dismissed the claim as absolute rubbish. Just because these things are reported in the press, doesn’t mean that they have any basis in fact. Like these so-called snuff films; to my knowledge there has never been even one actual authenticated case of a snuff film, that is, of someone being murdered for the explicit purpose of making a film. (101)

[A point I missed here was that if “the Jews” control TV to that extent, how did this one slip through?]

LB: I have to say that I do know of a man, I know of him, I don’t know him, I’ve never met him, but somebody has, and he was a snuff film agent, I suppose, buying or selling, and I’m pretty certain they do exist. I can’t help thinking that they do exist. (102)

I have a nasty feeling that the case of Jason Swift was one of these.

AB: That was an organised paedophile ring; I think this is one reason we have to be very careful here because by failing to separate fact from fantasy we can undermine the seriousness of a very real problem [organised paedophiles, child sexual abuse etc]. (103) Let me draw an analogy: on Monday a woman was raped in a taxi, and the driver has actually been charged with her rape. Today it was reported in the press and on the radio that the police were no longer taking seriously the claim of another woman who had reportedly been raped in similar circumstances. (104)

LB: Yes, but I would like to say that I still think there is something in this.

AB: Can we come back to Four Small Candles, which was edited by Edward First. Startlingly original this, isn’t it? This again is quite a disgusting little book. Like The Snides of March it is perhaps not quite so offensive at a second reading but there can be no mitigating this one. It is extremely unpleasant.

LB: I’m rather fond of satire occasionally. A giggle.

AB: Let me put it this way, if you were a Jewess and you picked this up, what thoughts would go through your head?

LB: Well it’s difficult to answer, this one, because they think so differently from us, so differently.

AB: Okay, let’s try another angle. You see films on TV which portray white Gentiles in an extremely offensive manner. I remember a classic of the genre, the title of which eludes me, but in it, the black actor Sidney Poitier was cast in the leading role. He befriended a blind girl who lived with her wicked stepmother/elder step-sister or something, who was played by Jewish actress Shelley Winters. (105) There have been many films made like this in which white Gentiles are portrayed as ignorant, racist bigots or as liberal, Negrophile hypocrites. They’re very unsubtle (106) and their message is always the same: that racism is wicked, that it’s all the fault of these evil, ignorant, bigoted whites, that they have oppressed the blacks, held them down and now they should give them everything. Words to that effect. I find this sort of propaganda both patronising and offensive; they’re so totally one-sided. But this [Four Candles] is in some respects even worse than that anti-Gentile (107) Hollywood trash.

LB: Yes, I’ve seen this sort of stuff before; I couldn’t do it and I probably wouldn’t if I could.

AB: I should hope not.

LB: Well, I did what I did in order to get the Jews to come back and hold a dialogue of some sort and not cry anti-Semite every time I open my mouth. I told them what it is, I told Julian Kossoff when he came to see me.

AB: He’s from the Jewish Chronicle?

LB: Yes, he is. (108)

AB: How many times has the Jewish Chronicle been to see you?

LB: Only once I think, and he interviewed me, and his first question was: Why do you think anti-Semitism is rising? And I said to him: Well I think, Mr Kossoff, we’re getting worried about certain aspects; we really want to talk, we have something to say, we have some questions.

AB: When was this?

LB: I think it was August 8th, 1990. I said we’re tired of being pushed around in our own country.

AB: I don’t believe anti-Semitism is rising, and I’ll tell you why. Last year in Northern Ireland there were nearly a hundred Sectarian murders. One of the last outrages last year was an eight year old boy who was singled out quite deliberately and shot just because his family were Catholics. This is out of a population of a million and a half. We have a population of over fifty million, and I don’t recall the last time we had a pogrom here or the last time a Jew was shot just because he was a Jew. So I don’t think anti-Semitism is rising, maybe there are a lot of Jews involved in them, but these groups are whipping up a lot of hysteria for no good reason, both here and in Eastern Europe, and now this Asylum Bill. This is being quite consciously and deliberately used for political ends. I wouldn’t blame the Jews for that; they read the propaganda, and they’re taken in by it the same way you’re taken in by snuff films. So I don’t believe anti-Semitism is rising. Certainly the truth is coming out about the Holocaust, but Holocaust Revisionism is not anti-Semitism. Full stop.

LB: Well that’s what it’s called you see, everything you say about the Jews unless you’re praising them, is anti-Semitism. I simply thought that if I get near enough, if we just talk about it, we’ll get there in the end. But they won’t let you get near.

AB: I still don’t think this is the right way to go about it, distributing leaflets like The Snides of March.

LB: Well, the reason I did that was to warn fellow Christians that they had raked up something 800 years ago which was said to be the most savage piece of anti-Semitism ever in Britain. If it was the most savage, why rake it up 800 years later? Isn’t that incitement to religious hostility?

AB: They certainly love to suffer.

LB: Well, everybody is saying the same thing wherever you go.

AB: On the other hand, they’re not unique in this respect?

LB: A lot of people call them the survivors now. I had to giggle, only this morning I heard this...Barbra Streisand...the one who refused to curtsy for Diana. (109) She said in the paper: It’s because I suffered so much that I can sing so well, because I had such a suffering background. I thought: Oh no, not another one.

AB: I don’t think she’s old enough to have survived the Holocaust.

LB: She’s forty-nine, isn’t she? We’ve got so many of them now, you see.

AB: Certainly history is manipulated; after the Beirut massacre in ’82 I think it was, (110) they realised then that it wasn’t sufficient to massacre Palestinians and then cry “Holocaust”. In some respects the tables have been turned on them, certainly Israel gets a lot of stick from the United Nations. I think also a lot of Jews have realised that they have been misled by a very fascistic régime. (111)

LB: Yes, I am sure that a lot of Jews don’t like what happens either in their own country or anywhere else. I know people who call it Jew York now. (112) There are nine million of them there. (113) I was watching somebody a few days ago imitating them when they’re in a restaurant. The terrible, terrible fuss they make, throwing themselves around. I don’t know why they don’t just pipe down. It’s self-flagellation the whole time; they imbue blacks with the same thing, blacks feel they’re persecuted.

AB: I think there is a certain amount of self-deprecation here; have you ever seen that Jewish comedian Jackie Mason?

LB: I’ve heard him talking about the Talmud, actually. There was nothing wrong with that except that it didn’t accord with my view of the Talmud, but there wasn’t any of this wailing.

AB: Are any of your other leaflets in here? [Four Small Candles.]

LB: Yes, all four of them.

AB: All four of them?

LB: They’re right in the middle.

AB: The Snides of March, Blood Libels, is that one of yours? (114)

LB: They’re not my leaflets, I didn’t write them.

AB: I see here that Jack the Ripper is claimed to be a Jew. (115)

LB: This one is about a bloodstained cloth found; [at the scene] the police whisked it away. They never really publicised the whole thing.

AB: Even if Jack the Ripper [were] Jewish, you can hardly condemn an entire race for one man’s crimes.

LB: No you can’t, but if they would just walk about the streets like the rest of us and not carry this awful burden on their shoulders.

AB: Can we talk about something else: the press. Do you remember when you were campaigning as the England Demands Repatriation Candidate?

LB: I don’t know about this.

AB: Behind the Lines by Polly Toynbee; this is from 1986.

LB: Is this the one from the Guardian?

AB: Yes.

LB: Yes, she had this great big Negro with his arms round my head, more or less, standing in the market in North End Road, Fulham. She made up this, you see, [the article] then she had the National Front marching in another corner of the picture, there you see. (116)

AB: How did she interview you for this? Did she ring you up?

LB: Yes, she rang up and came round. My flat was right in North End Road, you see. Then when we went out into the market she asked me to go up to one or two of these people, stallholders. So much of it [this article] is rubbish. A lot of things are taken from Searchlight, and Searchlight lies and lies and lies. I’ve had it again in the last few days, a whole stream of lies about myself. There’s nothing you can do about it, they tell lies all the time.

AB: So this woman from the Guardian came round to your flat, and she was very polite, I presume, very plausible.

LB: Yes, but if she comes from the Guardian I know she’s not my friend, so I was prepared for it.

AB: But she printed a total libel about you?

LB: I don’t call it libel. I call it journalist’s...what’s the word you use?

AB: Journalistic licence?

LB: Yes.

AB: Libel, I call that.

LB: Do you?

AB: Let’s call a spade a spade.

LB: They said that I took money from Saudi Arabia; I never take money from people like that, I wouldn’t dream of doing it.

AB: (Quoting from the article). “Like all racists, she doesn’t say publicly that she hates them, but simply that nature ordains each race should be kept within its territory.”

LB: That’s right...it’s not working here, it’s ghastly.

AB: (And again) “The world to her is one gigantic conspiracy after another.”

LB: Well it is.

AB: That may be the way it looks; it certainly feels like that at times. [And again.] “There is no Christian commandment to create a multi-racial Hell on Earth.”

LB: I put out a leaflet about religious madness. We’re flying in the face of the Creator, and the natural order in which we were created, where we were on different continents with different climates and conditions and cultures, you name it, faiths, everything. And we were far better and far happier when we were living on our own. Everybody knows this who’s got a grain of sense.

AB: Are you a strongly religious person?

LB: I don’t cross myself or say grace before a cup of coffee, which is what I have seen among the Evangelists, but I had to have a proper basis for why I didn’t like multi-racialism. I’m really a very simple Christian, I take the story as it’s told without all the embroidery.

AB: You’re not a Creationist, surely?

LB: No, I’m not a Creationist.

AB: You believe in evolution?

LB: No. Oh, I see what you mean. I suppose I am a Creationist if you call me that.

AB: You don’t believe in Adam and Eve, surely?

LB: I’ll tell you what I believe: if you have a story of that nature, a tale, and it’s helped people, millions of people to die or to face up to great sorrow, you have to believe something. I was brought up as a Christian and I lost my husband soon very after we married. (117) And I really thought I can’t go through with this...I’ve got forty years or more ahead of me, and the idea that you could see them again sort of steadied the boat...The people out in the street need something.

AB: Prior to this meeting we spoke about the film Whose England? Do you know anything about that?

[I have since been informed that this film is actually called England, Whose England?]

LB: Yes, I did, I had it here but somebody borrowed it and didn’t return it. You never saw it?

AB: No.

LB: It was a long time ago. G.K. Young, who died three or four years ago, he made it, it was made I think in the Monday Club.

[G.K. Young actually died in 1990.]

AB: You are persona non grata with the Monday Club, I gather?

LB: Yes, you see I was working against immigration, against multi-racialism with Sir Ronald Bell. One day the chairman came to me and said: You must resign, Lady Birdwood, we can’t have this. And I said: Look John, if you were to do what I’m doing instead of pushing somebody out of the Club...

[I am informed by a former member of the Monday Club that the John referred to here is Jonathan Guinness.]

AB: Why were you asked to resign?

LB: He didn’t like my views on multi-racialism, that’s all. But if the Monday Club approves of multi-racialism, in my view, something’s wrong.

AB: You weren’t accused of daubing swastikas on synagogue walls or anything like that? Basically you were kicked out just for publishing Choice?

LB: No, it was for working against multi-racialism while I was in the Monday Club. I think Ronald Bell’s organisation or his[?] (118) title was Halt Immigration Now Campaign, something like that, and I had collected 45,000 signatures and was of[f] to collect a hundred thousand. And we were doing this, and suddenly, as far as I’m concerned, the Club, folded up.

AB: Can we return to the Jewish Question? There are such things as anti-Semites, I know that because I’ve met them. I realise that the Jews do make a lot of noise about anti-Semitism and imagine it where it obviously doesn’t exist, but this should not blind us to the existence of anti-Semitism and anti-Semites...

LB: Why not? [Why shouldn’t there anti-Semites?] We can say that a Jew is anti-English, anti-French...we don’t make a terrible fuss and insist like the Board of Deputies on passing another [Race] Act which is going to be worse than any other we’ve had. (119)

AB: I’m talking here about Jew-haters. You obviously do not approve of people hating Jews just because they are Jews, but there are such people out there, I’ve met them.

LB: That’s right, there are, and how! I don’t hate them; I hate what they’re doing.

AB: And how?

LB: (Laughing.) That’s an expression I use.

AB: We know the sort of people I’m talking about.

LB: You’d be amazed, you really would be amazed. You go into pubs and places...they hate them.

AB: Who?

LB: Just the ordinary man in the street.

AB: I don’t believe that.

LB: Don’t you?

AB: No. But I do know that there is such a thing as organised anti-Semitism.

LB: There are people of course who absolutely detest them, who can’t talk about anything else.

AB: The mistake the Jews make is that they think anti-Semitism is a disease; it’s not a disease, it can’t be cured. If they want to stop it I would suggest that the very last way to achieve that is by pressurising the government to pass more and more Draconian race laws. Which are perceived by anti-Semites, with some justification, as Jewish laws. (120)

LB: They’re crazy. And they’re doing this now, and Ivan Lawrence is a very bad one at this and he’s now going to get it into the Conservative Party manifesto that another very strong law must be introduced...we’ve had one after the other.

AB: Is this for race generally or for anti-Semitism specifically?

LB: No, it’s for race: “anti-racism”, and they say that it will help millions of Sikhs and Asians and Moslems and everybody else, and the Jews. In their view, white Christians are at fault, and they make it quite clear. The Inner London Education Authority said that no coloured person could be racist, only whites.

AB: They’ve obviously never been to Malaysia, or to Japan.

LB: It’s quite incredible, you see. And if you go round writing in your magazine JC (121) that you’re going to have a big campaign: the Jews are absolutely marvellous, it’s they who stand up and do these sorts of things. What they’re doing is to ruin our freedom, our freedom of speech and choice. (122) And this is the trouble; the law is getting tighter and tighter. [Ken] Livingstone stood up in Parliament and said there must be a new law banning the BNP altogether. It’s crazy all this.

AB: Why can’t we fight them legally, through the courts?

LB: Who, the Jews? (123)

AB: No, not the Jews, these state paternalists who are going to determine what we can think, what we can read, what we can say...

LB: If you read the JC you’ll see it’s all there, who’s doing it. The BBC sent a team of six here to interview me and it was all about this new act that Janner and his hundred merry men in Parliament were getting up to.

AB: When was this?

LB: It must be a year ago. They went on about it, and they said: What are you going to do about the act? And I said: Not obey it, I can assure you. And they said: You have to. And I said: No I don’t have to at all because we never gave permission for these people to come here. There was no mandate ever for multi-racialism. And this is the root of the trouble, the fact that there is no mandate to any Parliament before or since so to speak, for multi-racialism. They must consult, they must tell you what you’re going to do, and only when we came to 1976, after that Race Act did they start talking about: We are a multi-racial country. You can’t. Can you imagine if the Indians were told that they were going multi-racial, having just thrown us out?

AB: Can we talk a bit about the British National Party now? What is your opinion of John Tyndall, and of Ray Edmonds?

[I meant Richard Edmunds. She didn’t pick up on my error.]

LB: I don’t give opinions about them at all, I know them both. I think that these movements are socialist, I say that without despising socialists, but I am not a socialist, therefore it has never been my intention to join them.

AB: Tyndall is an authoritarian.

LB: Yes.

AB: And Edmonds is a headcase.

LB: Edmonds is a big chap with a loud voice; he can be very nice.

AB: Provided your skin is white.

LB: You have to then look at who has done this to us. (124) This is what you have to do. Who is behind this invasion of our country? If it were a frontal invasion we would be armed, we would be told to go out and get rid of the invaders, and nobody would dare to say anything about racism.

AB: I presume that unlike many people on the so-called racist right you are not in favour of us taking up arms?

LB: No. Why should we have to, why should we? If they had asked us: Do you mind if we create a multi-racial Britain, what say you to that? We will have a referendum, and you will have to answer yes or no. If they had said this forty years ago the answer would have been an overwhelmingly no.

AB: I think it still would be, largely.

LB: Yes.

AB: Talking of armed invasions, you have a book on your shelf, The Turner Diaries. Have you got Hunter as well? (125)

LB: No, I haven’t read The Turner Diaries; people send me these books and to be perfectly honest I read [press] cuttings until I look like a cutting to keep up with what’s going on now.

AB: You haven’t read The Turner Diaries?

LB: No, I haven’t, but somebody picked it up, yesterday I think it was.

AB: It’s a very unpleasant book written by a very unpleasant man.

LB: Is it? Well, I’ve been told it’s great you see, so I don’t know, I can’t say.

AB: It advocates genocide.

LB: Does it? You see, this is what’s happening now. Our people are, I hate the expression “shacking up”, but they’re encouraged, these people, to do these things. I’m totally opposed...I did a leaflet on it but...

AB: On miscegenation?

LB: Er, mongreli...

[Lady Birdwood stopped in mid-sentence and asked me if I would like to see the leaflet; she then fished it out from her cupboard.]

You see, if you get a black who cares about his nation then he won’t do this; you’ll find they’re as strong as we are on this. And then you’ve got Apartheid. In my view, Apartheid is not terrible. If people are forced by other people to live together in the same country and they don’t like it, they go off into a thing there. There’s nothing wrong with it.

AB: Certainly there are a lot of bad things about Apartheid.

LB: I think they were cooked up, I’m sorry. Cooked up to stop it.

AB: The point to be made is that if forced segregation is bad, how can forced integration be good?

LB: Forced segregation I think is very bad; forced integration is, yes, it’s very bad. You just want to be in your own country; you don’t want to be pushed around in somebody else’s, or pushed around by somebody else. We’re much better on our own, and there’s nothing very shocking in it.

AB: If I may draw an analogy: a while ago I spoke to [Rabbi Mayer Schiller] and he told me that he lives and works among Jews, and that he hardly sees Gentiles from day to day. He told me that there is always this fear among Jews of the resurgence of anti-Semitism. I couldn’t understand that, but I’m willing to accept it. It is a genuine fear. But white people have a similar fear, a fear that is every bit as valid as the Jews’ fear of anti-Semitism, more so in fact, but one that is ridiculed by the media, not the Jews in the mass media but the left wing scum, the champagne socialists and all these other supposed champions of the working class. That fear is the fear of a black planet, of not just ethnic swamping, but of genocide.

LB: Quite right.

AB: I have something here which I would like to show you; I’m sure you are familiar with this paper. (126)

LB: Yes, I am.

AB: Here on page 2 is an article Will Whites Become Extinct? which has a drawing of a future Uncle Sam who is part Negro, part Asian and part South American. This is a very real fear for white people. Whether you believe in Creationism in which case man is a fallen angel, or in evolution, in which case he is an ape on the way up...either way, miscegenation is wrong.

LB: Yes. They must keep their actual identity, or heaven knows what we’re going to do. I don’t hate anybody, but for their sakes and for ours, they must go back. Look what has happened in Portugal, have you seen it? The country has been ruined.

AB: I don’t have to go to Portugal...

LB: In school over the past twenty years, they’ve been taught there’s nothing wrong with it. (127) I say that we shouldn’t tolerate it here; we should simply offer repatriation; they want to go, masses of them want to leave, they’re not allowed to leave. The thing should be done properly.

[I suggested to Lady Birdwood that an anti-miscegenation law might be the solution to the race problem as she saw it, but...]

LB: Then I think you make it...I wouldn’t, I don’t think. I think it’s a matter of pride actually. We should see that it doesn’t happen. (128)

AB: ...there should be a recognition that white people have a right to exist, something which they don’t have at the moment. All groups have a right to exist.

LB: That’s right, I agree entirely. I say that if we could just get back to where we were in this country...I don’t hate anybody on Earth, but I think it [repatriation] would be better. You can always hold up the Jews really because they insist on marrying into their own kin. They’re coming unstuck actually according to Sacks, the Chief Rabbi.

AB: I gather that about one in three of them are marrying out now. [Anglo-Jewry as a whole.]

LB: Yes.

AB: Which they’re alarmed at.

LB: Yes.

AB: Do you think there’s the possibility of forming an alliance here between white so-called racists, black separatists and Orthodox Jews?

LB: Yes, there might be, I think it would be a good thing always to look for some way to sort out things between Jews and Gentiles. Do you remember a man called Albert Elder?

AB: I’ve heard of him. (129)

LB: Albert was a good friend of mine; he used to sit on a seat in the triangle outside Victoria station. We used to sit on this seat in the middle of the traffic arguing about it. He was going to introduce me to one of the Lubovitch rabbis I think, then as you know, he died very suddenly. (130)

AB: I was told he was a bit of a headcase, but I was told you were a bit of a headcase too, so I won’t take too much notice of that.

LB: That’s probably Bernard Levin, wasn’t it?

AB: I was thinking of that creature from the Guardian, Polly Toynbee.

LB: Oh, Polly Toynbee, poor Polly, never mind. This is what they do you see, when they don’t like what you say. They have to find some reason for expunging you, more or less. Bernard Levin wrote an awful article about me the other day.

AB: The other day?

LB: Yes. So did Nigella Lawson.

AB: Nigella Lawson?

LB: She wrote another one you see, about me being off my head.

AB: Has she ever met you?

LB: No. I’ve never met her to my knowledge.

AB: Perhaps you should ring her up and invite her round.

LB: No, I mean it’s silly, it’s a waste of time. If people can’t be more sensible and understand that we don’t want to become a sort of half-caste nation.

AB: Perhaps Nigella Lawson is just quoting what other people say. I have found fairly recently that you have to go to the original source or as near to it as possible because people will lie to you wilfully. (131)

If we can come back to the conspiracy, which most people on the right believe is a Jewish conspiracy or a Zionist conspiracy. I put it to you that if a conspiracy does exist, (and I personally believe one does), (132) then it is not a Jewish conspiracy but an anti-Jewish conspiracy even though many Jews may be involved in it?

LB: An anti-Jewish conspiracy?

AB: Let me put it this way: the Mafia can be viewed as a Sicilian conspiracy because its members are Sicilians, but it is not a pro-Sicilian conspiracy. (133) The IRA is an Irish conspiracy, although it is also an anti-Irish conspiracy because it is largely Irishmen who are being murdered by it. So if there is a Jewish conspiracy, can Jews not be its victims as much as anybody else?

LB: I suppose they can, but I’m saying that they draw it on themselves by not talking. They go off to the Board of Deputies and come back with something which is damaging to us and other races. They don’t seem to understand that this country is becoming enraged by multi-racialism. You know what we’re like in the end; God help if it happens. I think we should avoid bloodshed if we possibly can. I can’t control what Mr Smith, Mr Jones or Mrs Robinson do in the end.

AB: Or Mr Edmonds?

LB: Well yes, there are the violent types around, and I always say it without exception: Don’t talk about violence. And I’ve said it on a platform in Deansgate, Manchester; there was a little girl playing below the platform, it was quite high, and I was addressing the audience, and I was talking about this, and I said: You know what’s going to happen don’t you, in the end, that child will die, just bleed to death in the gutter somewhere, because people must have violence to sort out these things. I said: Get on your feet and do something at local level that will help, and stop the threat of violence.

AB: If we continue with this theme of race-mixing, particularly the Jewish involvement. I don’t see too many yamulkas there and I don’t see any black hats, black beards and black gowns. In other words, I don’t see any Orthodox Jews.

LB: No, but you do see the others. Everybody’s talking about it now, some people just sit in front and count them. I saw a play the other night: the authors were Jews, the producer was a Jew and everybody in it was a Jew, and it was terrible.

AB: What was it called?

LB: Oh, I can’t remember the name, I turned it off, it was so disgusting.

AB: You’re sure all these people were Jews?

LB: Yes. Everybody’s saying it now. (134)

AB: They are the Haskalah Jews, the ones who have been led away from their religion as it were.

LB: I don’t know what their name is; I didn’t like the Hassidic business, the documentary on Hassidic Jews. (135)

AB: I thought that was very good.

LB: Did you?

AB: They [Orthodox Jews] do not promote miscegenation.

LB: No, they don’t. I’m not talking only about miscegenation.

AB: This is what it all comes down to, the fear of a black planet.

LB: Yes, it does, but there’s almost inter-breeding there.

AB: I’m quite willing to accept the Orthodox Jews’ Weltanschauung. They want to preserve their own culture, their own way of life, their own race. They will fraternise with Gentiles, do business with them etc., but they want to preserve what they’ve got.

LB: That’s right.

AB: That’s perfectly okay.

LB: But when you’ve got a whole colony of them up there like that, [in Stamford Hill] it’s so foreign to us, that way of life. Why don’t they stay in their own country? (136)

LB: Of course, the English way of life is completely foreign to them. I wanted to go once, [to Israel] but they wouldn’t let me in because they said I had to get a visa. (137)

AB: They’ve only had their own country since 1948.

LB: It’s not their own, come on now, that was a very bad business. (138)

AB: Yes, but so was the subjugation of the American continent. If we’re going to give Palestine back to the Palestinians are we also going to give America back to the Red Man?

LB: No, I think when you’ve got the [Red] Indians on a continent the size of America who apparently are not going to breed into a huge nation...

AB: Of course they’re not, the White Man wiped them out!

LB: Well, that was so long ago.

AB: That doesn’t make it right. Don’t you think the two-state solution to the Palestine question is the only equitable solution?

LB: I think there’s always going to be trouble.

AB: Again, this underlines the importance of race: a Jew is a Jew; a Palestinian is a Palestinian.

LB: That’s right, but it was Palestine before.

AB: Now it’s Israel, it’s a reality.

LB: Yes but it shouldn’t have been.

AB: It shouldn’t have been but it is, and we have to live with realities. Are we going to kick them out into the desert. Send them all to New York?

LB: Well, there were other countries.

AB: Madagascar?

LB: Uganda. (139)

AB: Now the Ugandans would have something to say about that.

LB: They would! And there were of course the Falashas too in Ethiopia. But it wasn’t all that long ago, and it was such a stupid thing to do. Why pick on Palestine?

AB: They felt they had a right to it.

LB: I know they did, but there’s going to be endless trouble there.

The second interview appears to end here.

**********

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