The following transcript was recorded at Lady Birdwood’s Acton, West London flat on Friday, January 24, 1992. The questions and answers are not necessarily in strict order, because I felt continuity to be more important than a mere mechanical recitation. (27)

Alexander Baron: At your trial you defended yourself and you called Dr Leperer as a defence witness?

Lady Birdwood: No, the Crown Prosecutor [called him as an expert witness]. He flatly refused to read any quote from the Talmud.

AB: Leperer?

LB: No, the Crown Prosecutor. He said he would read the leaflets but he would not read the books. Then we came to the various witnesses; Leperer was one of them. Then there was a woman. There were nine of them [altogether]. At the committal hearing at Horseferry Road, the magistrate and my barrister and the Crown barrister agreed between them that every feeling and every opinion expressed, put down in writing by these witnesses, should be excluded. I couldn’t see the sense in it.

AB: Your barrister agreed?

LB: Apparently.

AB: Why? Did you ask him?

LB: I said, it seems silly if you don’t have opinions and feelings about this, then you can’t know if there’s any hatred. The whole thing’s damn silly – excuse my language. I felt this all along, you see. Then when we got there, the Crown Prosecutor refused to read out any quote from the Talmud. Then we had the various nine witnesses, one of whom was the specialist, the expert on the Talmud, Dr Leperer, and he refused to explain how what he called rubbish and/or inaccurate and/or something else from the Talmud, why they were as he described. He refused to say what the real thing was. And the whole thing went by default. The judge didn’t attempt to help at all.

AB: Did you cross-examine him?

LB: Yes, I tried, but the first time you ever do this, it’s a very difficult matter. Some people were very rude about me, others said they thought I didn’t do badly at all.

AB: Who was called for the defence?

LB: I didn’t call anybody.

AB: And you defended purely on the grounds of freedom of speech?

LB: Yes, I defended on [those] grounds...I questioned all the nine witnesses, and every single one of them said they were not insulted by the material, and it was insulted rather than abused or threatened that the prosecutor singled out. So I went for insulting, and not one of them was insulted, and not one of them saw any kind of demonstration or riot or any kind of public hatred [arise out of it].

AB: Then why were you convicted?

LB: The jury were rather young, several of them, most of them, seemed to be in jeans. There was one woman who swore on the Koran; there was an Indian gentleman who seemed to be, I thought, very, very civilised, and in the end, to my amazement, I must tell you I had no idea, the foreman turned out to be a Jewess.

[Laughter.]

LB: I was astonished.

AB: You don’t think she was a plant?

LB: I mean, it was a pushover for her, absolute pushover. There were the leaflets in front of these people, and they didn’t take any notice of what I was saying.

AB: What did the judge say?

[Lady Birdwood said that many people found the Talmud a difficult book to understand. During the course of her trial she had the entire Hebrew/English edition by her side.]

LB: I picked up one volume, the Sanhedrin, and opened it at one bad passage, handed it to the clerk and asked the leave of the judge to hand it to Leperer, and I asked him to read it out. And he flatly refused to read it out. I asked him again, and he [still] refused. The judge didn’t pursue the matter.

AB: Why didn’t you read it out?

LB: I don’t know, it’s very difficult to say. I don’t mind [sic] reading it out, but I didn’t think I ought to do it. I had nobody to guide me at all. This young chap who turned up in the end was twenty years old; he was very bright, but he knew nothing about a court of law. (28) I got out these three submissions one by one, each time the jury left the court because they weren’t supposed to hear the chat, and I put my case and I suppose he [the judge] pretended to listen, but nothing happened at all.

AB: Lady Birdwood, you were actually convicted of distributing leaflets with intent to incite racial hatred?

LB: I was convicted of distributing four leaflets which were written by somebody else. They were sent to me anonymously.

AB: The identity of that person was revealed in court? I was under the impression that they were written by a certain Mr Colin Jordan? (29)

LB: No.

AB: You can’t name the author?

LB: No. I picked up the first one, The Snides of March, and after I read it I was extremely incensed by the commemoration by Jews and Christians in the City of York in connection with something which happened eight hundred years ago.

The massacre in York Minster. The massacre, quote unquote. It was described by the Guardian as the most savage case of English anti-Semitism in history. This was in 1190. I was incensed by this; I thought to myself the people of this country should understand about this. The leaflet spoke also about the murders of child martyrs.

AB: This is something which is not exactly new to you. You have been involved in the Jewish Question, anti-Semitism et al for sometime.

LB: No, this is not true. I did notice somebody say this [but] it’s not true, it’s quite recent. It came really about through those four leaflets.

AB: When did you first become aware of Jews?

LB: For many years I’ve realised, but one of the witnesses at the trial claimed that Choice was littered with anti-Semitism. This is absolute rubbish.

AB: How long have you been publishing Choice?

LB: About eighteen years.

AB: You started it yourself?

LB: Yes, I did.

AB: It’s basically an anti-immigration paper?

LB: It’s not anti-immigration, it’s anti-multi-racialism, which is different. I don’t bare any grudge against these people, but we should have been asked if we wanted to go multi-racial. And I think you will agree with me that any nation should be told if it’s going to be changed into a multi-racial from a one-race nation.

AB: I think I would agree, as would most people that there is a very great element of compulsion in multi-racialism. Certainly anyone who speaks out against either multi-racialism or non-white immigration albeit in the mildest terms runs the risk of being hysterically denounced.

LB: That’s true, but you see, only a white can be a racist. This was decreed by the Inner London Education Authority; (30) they promulgated this idea.

AB: When was that?

LB: I think it was about three years before they wound up, and I felt very strongly about this. They should in fact have mentioned the word multi-racial right from the beginning. It was first mentioned in 1976 at the time they passed the third Race Act.

AB: The term racist is used extremely loosely. How would you define it? I think we can agree it is almost always used as a pejorative.

LB: I think it’s a load of rubbish especially as it can only ever be levelled at us, whites, and not to any other people, then in fact it’s a non-starter, and what I say is that we rejected multi-racialism as soon as we realised.

AB: Would you call yourself a racist?

LB: No.

AB: How would you define the word?

LB: It’s used the same way they use anti-Semite, as a barrier to stop you, but you can’t stop people...there never has been any commitment in this country to multi-racialism.

AB: You obviously believe that there is such a thing as race; the prevailing dogma is that race doesn’t really exist, that it’s a myth. Essentially it is that if say a Negro is born in Sweden, then he is a Swede.

LB: No, this is wrong; he’ll always be of his own race.

AB: Race exists, it’s not a myth? (31)

LB: I don’t think it’s a myth at all. I’m sure that if you went to Africa, to Nigeria say and told them they weren’t a race that they wouldn’t take very kindly to you.

AB: Do you believe that races are biologically different?

LB: I do. Quite clearly above everything else they’ve got different cultures.

What about the doctrine of inferiority and superiority. Do you believe that one race is superior to another?

LB: No.

AB: No? (32)

LB: No, I don’t. Look, we can’t all be absolutely equal in this world. We would be idiots in my view if we believed this. [Negroes] are very strong generally, they have a second muscle in the back of the heel, something we haven’t got, so they’re terrific runners and jumpers. But we may have some characteristic, perhaps in the brain, which they haven’t got. So I think it levels off.

AB: There is a school of thought that says the Negro is the inferior (33) of the white man, that he has never created a single civilisation and that he should not be granted equality with the white man.

LB: Yes I know they say that, then they always go on to say that everybody is equal in the sight of God, so I like to leave it like that. If there is one judge over everybody then I think that whatever colour they are, some may have certain qualities which others don’t.

AB: Do you think it matters if one race is superior to another or if one individual is superior to another? You wouldn’t deny anyone their rights?

LB: No, I wouldn’t. When I say that, I don’t think that people should pile in here in their millions and expect the same rights as people who were born here.

AB: It seems to be taken for granted in some circles that anyone who doesn’t believe in racial equality or who opposes forced race-mixing in anyway is a Nazi. Anyone who advocates repatriation or even has the temerity to suggest that non-white immigration should be curtailed is a Nazi. And, of course, they will send all the blacks, Asians and other ethnic minorities to the gas chambers. (34)

LB: We hardly need mention this, it’s such rubbish. We’re not likely to do this; I believe that these people should be repatriated simply because it hasn’t worked out, because we were never told, and neither were they. They thought they were coming here to very, very good jobs. They had no idea it was anything about multi-racialism. We certainly didn’t know, and even the Prime Minister, Mr Attlee, when they arrived in 1947, he had no idea why the Empire brought four hundred odd Caribbean people here. (35) He asked the Home Secretary, “What’s this?”

That was the beginning of it; the whole thing is shocking in my view; it’s not fair to them and it’s not fair to us.

AB: Let’s have this loud and clear so that everybody understands: you have been called a Nazi. Are you a Nazi?

LB: This again is absolute nonsense, absolute nonsense. The National Socialists were got together because there seemed to be a need to do battle; the Jews were doing the same in Germany; they were trying to create a multi-racial society. The Germans didn’t like it and fought it, and in the end there came a man who sort of gathered them together, and we were sort of dragged into the war to fight it.

AB: You don’t think we should have gone to war with Germany?

LB: No. I’ve been to Germany a lot and I’ve never never thought we should have fought them. (36)

AB: You are not a Nazi, a Hitlerite or in any way pro-Hitler?

LB: No. I feel that we should not follow somebody who had failed. To all intents and purposes, the world thinks that Hitler failed. I wouldn’t describe myself as a follower; I’ve been invited to various functions...

AB: By Nazis?

LB: Yes, by people who support the Nazis. (37)

AB: In this country?

LB: Yes, and I’ve been quite honest about it. I’ve been along out of curiosity. I’ve found myself amongst German marching songs, this sort of thing, and I don’t like it. I went once to a film and at the end of it there were about twelve of them stood up in a bunch and gave the Nazi salute. And the film was all about Hitler, and I said at the end, not for me. And they said at the end, there’s one thing they would all like to know, that is, is Jane Birdwood a Nazi. Well, I told them I’m not.

AB: Are you a fascist?

LB: No.

AB: How would you describe yourself then: as a Conservative?

LB: Yes, but with a small ‘c’. I’m for conserving what we’ve got here or what we’ve had here. At the moment I’m nothing, I’m neutral. I object now I think to the party system in this country. They scream at each other; the people haven’t got a chance to get a word in because it’s all relayed through television and radio. How about us? Don’t we matter at all, you people yelling at each other across the House?

AB: What would you put in its place?

LB: I should go back to the original constitutional voting which was that one person was voted into a constituency by the people in that constituency. They stood, and if they were elected, they went into the House as the Member. They spoke for all the people in that constituency, they spoke about people or, if you like, about policies rather than politics. Things that mattered to people.

AB: When did you first become involved in the anti-immigration campaign?

LB: After my husband died I went to live in Italy for a year and a half simply because I didn’t want to be here. When I came back, this was ’66, I realised something was going wrong here. I began to see these people and I thought to myself: “What was the beginning of this?” I didn’t hear anything about it, so I began to interest myself in it. And after about a year I started Choice. It’s intermittent as funds come along; there was a certain amount of interest, but I was never a party, never, only a pressure group, and anybody could join. I met a communist once who was as strongly against multi-racialism as I am, and if he had wanted to come onto my list he could have. I’m catering for 85% of the people of this country.

AB: I think there’s no doubt about that.

LB: The blacks say it’s 90%. They do.

AB: What do they say, exactly?

LB: Just that. They say that English people are against multi-racialism.

AB: Have you spoken to blacks about this?

LB: I went, it must have been about 1981, I was invited to go to Handsworth in Birmingham to meet a group of Rastafarians in, what do they call it, their Citadel. I went along, and there were about twenty of them, and they all sat round the wall with their shoes off, because it was their Citadel. I was allowed to sit on a chair because my back wasn’t very good, and the first question was: “Jane, do you know any country on Earth where multi-racialism works?”

And I said, “No, not even Brazil.” And I’ve been to Brazil. They said that’s why we like your paper, Choice, because we don’t want it either, and we want to leave. So I said: What have you done about it? And they said: Well, we wrote to Mr Whitelaw and we said we wanted to go. We’ve been here about ten years; we receive about £30 a week, and we asked him why can’t we have the lump sum and go?

So I said, “You can’t be going to Ethiopia, I suppose, in the middle of a war.” (38) No, we don’t want to go there. Well, where do you want to go? Well, we’re wondering about Nigeria and Ghana. So I said what are you doing? They said, well, we’ve written and we’re waiting for a reply. So I left it at that, but I said if ever you want help, let me know, I’ll help you if I possibly can. And they’ve been to Downing Street and they’ve tried, and Downing Street simply sent them away with a flea in their ear.

AB: Most people who come to this country are economic migrants.

LB: Now you see, they’re everything, and this Asylum Bill as I see it, is not going to do any good at all. I don’t think it’s really going to stop all these illegal immigrants.

AB: What do you think about the Socialist Workers Party et al who say that we should have no immigration controls whatsoever?

LB: I saw their poster, I’ve got it here, somebody pulled it off a wall and brought it to me. Well, I didn’t like it at all, they haven’t got the message, they don’t realise how the rest of the country feel. And I think they and the Anti-Nazi League have got together then fell out; (39) the whole thing is a terrible mess, and it’s not going to help the blacks, all this.

AB: What do you think about miscegenation, which is the root cause of all this racial hostility; would you outlaw it?

LB: I don’t think you can, I think the only solution is that all these people are going to have to go back.

AB: Just like that?

LB: Yes. Well, not just like that, but the government, having brought them here, without telling us or telling them, should now, in my view, go and finance them as they need financing. Just as Farrakhan in America is talking about reparations.

AB: Farrakhan has himself been branded an anti-Semite.

LB: Yes, I know he has; doesn’t this tell you something?

AB: You mentioned earlier that the Jews were promoting race-mixing in Weimar Germany?

LB: Yes, in the 1930s they were trying to mix, and these so-called Nazis described themselves as Aryans.

AB: When you say they were trying to mix, what do you mean?

LB: Well, the Jews were trying the same game, but it never reached the same proportions, nothing like what has happened here.

AB: Do you accept Jews as [fellow] whites?

LB: Oh yes, but of course they’ve got the Ethiopian Fallasha Jews too.

What I mean is, there is this notion that the Jew is first and foremost a Jew whereas...

LB: [Interrupting] No, he’s not a race, he’s a religion.

AB: A religion?

LB: If you ask them, they will say so.

AB: Hitler said they were a race.

LB: Yes, I know, this often comes up: are they a race, are they a religion or are they an ethnic minority.

AB: Do you believe in the Jewish world conspiracy?

LB: Yes, I do.

AB: To what extent?

LB: To a great extent, I believe this is their goal.

AB: Do you believe they are all involved in it?

LB: No, I would say quite a big proportion probably doesn’t follow this line, but then they have a rough time if they don’t.

AB: Do you believe in the Protocols Of Zion?

LB: Yes.

AB: You believe it is a genuine document?

LB: Oh yes. I’ve no doubt about it. Certainly if it wasn’t theirs, they picked it up. And long, long ago I remember about this, and everything, every mortal thing has come to pass. (40)

AB: Do you believe communism is Jewish?

LB: [After a considerable pause] Yes, I do. The people at the head of it, the Bolshevik Revolution, practically the whole lot were Jews. Weren’t they?

AB: Except the two biggest ones of all: Stalin and Lenin.

LB: Well, Stalin was known not to be but his wife was; Lenin, I think the Jews themselves are not quite sure about that.

AB: But there is, how can I put it? There is a belief that the Jews use communism as a movement for world domination, but couldn’t it be the other way round? That communism uses the Jews? (41)

LB: I don’t know if you’ve ever seen this small book, it’s about this high, and it says, Why Don’t You Believe What We Say To You?

AB: I have. (42)

LB: Well you’ll see there a quote about this.

AB: But...

LB: It says it there: we are at both ends – we are the communists; we are the capitalists. And we pull the strings.

AB: The point is that there are Gentile capitalists and Gentile communists; it’s a very easy thing to count noses as it were. Does the fact that there are Jews involved in organised crime mean that the Mafia is Jewish? Or Sicilian? Does the fact that Colombians are heavily involved in cocaine mean that the illegal drugs industry is Columbian? Or [the fact] that the majority of pimps in New York are black, does that mean that organised prostitution is a black conspiracy or racket?

I’ll tell you where I stand. There can be no doubt that communism was financed by big business, from the outset. This has been documented overwhelmingly by Sutton and others. (43) And this is not what we have been told either by the history books or by the communists themselves. So somebody is telling lies. Sutton’s conclusion as far as the Jewish conspiracy theory of the Bolshevik Revolution is concerned is that the Bolsheviks were actually financed principally by the Gentile banking houses of Morgan and Rockefeller and that the major Jewish firm involved, Kuhn-Loeb was, once it realised that the Bolsheviks were worse than the Tsars, was as unhappy with them as it had been with the former rulers of Russia. Sutton concludes that the Jewish conspiracy theory was promulgated in the first instance by the House of Morgan, the House of Rockefeller or both as a red herring. A corollary of this is that the involvement of Jews with the communist movement has been used ever since to stifle any criticism of it, and to shield communism’s powerful backers by ridiculing anti-communists, denouncing them as anti-Semites, etc.

LB: I always had the idea that Sutton is a Jew, [sic].

AB: Sutton as well?

LB: Yes, they used him. I always associated him with them, and I couldn’t help wondering about it. It’s very difficult, isn’t it? You never know where you are for two seconds. I mean for my trial they were a race; they came under the “race hatred” section of the [Public] Order Act. The leaflets were about religion and in court they refused to read one single word from these leaflets about the Talmud. Leperer, Dr Leperer, who is their expert, refused flatly in the witness box when I asked him if he would read it out to the court. It’s so obscene, pornographic, frightful. I asked him to read from the Sanhedrin volume.

AB: I haven’t read the Talmud but I will accept what you say at face value. However, it’s very easy to choose your facts selectively and make out anyone to be black as sin. I don’t doubt there is a lot of pornography in the ancient Jewish scriptures, but there’s also a lot in the Christian Bible.

LB: Not like that.

AB: Cain and Abel the first murder, fornication, Sodom and Gomorrah?

LB: I recommend you to go to a library, get hold of the [Soncino] version and have a look and see for yourself. Some of it is pure filth.

AB: Do you hold Jews today responsible for the depravity of their ancestors? That hardly seems fair.

LB: No, but I can, on the whole, as it is so very bad, particularly about Christians and women, (our women, not theirs), it is so bad that I would have thought somebody would have done something about it, not allowed it to circulate, not allowed it to be used in the colleges. They’re brought up on this.

AB: Religious Jews, perhaps. I’m not qualified to speak about this but...

LB: You ought to take a look.

AB: Surely though this is par for the course for any religion: tasteless misrepresentations of other tribes: heathens, etc.

LB: Yes but I think you really must look into it; it’s got English translations if you read it back to front. It’s got the English translation in tiny, tiny letters, and below it’s got even smaller ones trying to translate what’s said up above into English. (44)

AB: When you distributed first these leaflets then The Longest Hatred, (45) it didn’t occur to you that they might have proved highly insulting or distressing to any Jew who read them? Certainly it’s not a very tactful thing to do. You say you want to start a dialogue between white Christians and Jews; that’s hardly the way to go about it. Don’t you think there are better ways of doing it?

LB: Well, not in the end. If they were putting out all this stuff for six to eight months and a lot of people commented on this sudden uproar of Jewish stuff mixed in with the Holocaust every few months. And many people agreed with me when I said it’s preempting my trial. (46)

AB: You told me last time we met about your being mentioned in Searchlight and how you thought Ludmer had a heart attack on your account. (47)

LB: Oh yes, nine times in one volume. I always said perhaps that I upset Ludmer’s heart or something. [Laughing]. (48)

AB: Maurice Ludmer was a Jewish communist.

LB: He was a Czech Jew, wasn’t he?

AB: Searchlight is of course run by Jews.

LB: Yes. There’s that man Gerry Gable; he’s got his come-uppance now, hasn’t he, with that fracas in the library in Kensington. (49)

AB: He’s also an accredited agent of MI5. (50) He was exposed as long ago as 1980 by the New Statesman for passing on information about left wing organisations to British Intelligence. (51)

LB: I think the paper (52) in itself is an incitement to violence. I do, really. Some of their remarks are absolutely scurrilous.

AB: In a recent issue they claim that you published a booklet called Four Small Candles.

LB: Really? Well, they know more than I do.

AB: Have you seen it?

LB: Yes, I’ve seen it.

AB: What do you think of it?

LB: Well, I rather wondered why they put it out, but that’s their business; perhaps it was to show me up or something, I don’t know.

AB: I think it was actually published by an anti-Semitic group.

LB: It’s published in America.

AB: My information is that although it carries a United States’ address, it was actually printed in Uckfield. (53)

LB: Really? Well, that I don’t know; somebody handed me a copy.

AB: That’s not the sort of thing you would publish?

LB: No, I wouldn’t. I haven’t got the talent anyhow for this sort of thing.

AB: You’ve been credited as the publisher.

LB: Have I now? Where?

AB: By Searchlight. (54)

LB: Searchlight? Well, I could have sued Searchlight several times. It’s not worth it, is it? (55)

AB: Can we talk about the Holocaust?

LB: Yes, if you wish, but it’s a bit overdone.

AB: Do you believe in it?

LB: No.

AB: Did you ever believe in it?

LB: No, I don’t think I ever did because I was alive during the war and I just er, you know...I worked in Belsen.

AB: You were in Belsen?

LB: I was in Belsen in 1946, I think it was.

AB: You didn’t meet Maurice Ludmer there?

LB: No. He was there I guess as a prisoner of war?

AB: No, he visited it about the same time as you, I believe.

LB: Oh, what was he doing there?

AB: I think perhaps he was with the British Army, but apparently he was so shocked by what he saw there that he decided to devote the rest of his life to fighting racism. (56)

LB: Perhaps it was he who photographed all the bones; somebody sent me three pages of bones. There was no terrific report of Belsen, you know, (57) but the people who died, and they did die in their thousands, died first of all from typhus, and quite frankly you must know quite enough about it to realise that the clothes of all the people who came into contact with it had to be burned.

AB: What were you actually doing at Belsen?

LB: I was with the Red Cross team.

AB: The Red Cross?

LB: I didn’t get there in the first days.

AB: If you listen to certain parties, they would have us believe that you were there during the war, dressed in a black uniform and carrying a bullwhip.

LB: Yes, I’m sure. [Laughing.]

AB: So you were with the Red Cross; that was very fascistic of you.

LB: In Mr Gable’s view, yes. We ran a hospital for fifteen hundred amputees from a castle with a moat round it, and all these chaps came and learned to manage their limbs, you know, repairing shoes or watch-making or whatever. It was very interesting work.

AB: You never saw any gas chambers in Belsen? (58)

LB: No. I went to Poland with my husband and we both refused flatly to go to Auschwitz.

AB: Holocaust Revisionism has actually been going on for quite some time, but it’s only in the past twenty years or so that it’s really caught on. (59) Who do you think invented the Holocaust, if anybody did?

LB: It’s so difficult you know, I mean, since the Jews picked it up and made such a fetish of it that I guess that the money they got from it...I wrote a small piece in Choice called Holocausts Galore, and I just don’t believe it.

AB: Anti-Semites blame it entirely on the Jews, but a clinical examination of the facts suggests that others were involved to a great degree; it would have been impossible for Jews to carry it off entirely on their own. David Irving, who, unlike you, is an anti-Semite, has suggested that the British Psychological Warfare Executive was largely responsible. Others have pointed the finger at the Americans. Do you believe that the British and the Americans were just as responsible as the Zionists for the creation of the Holocaust legend?

LB: British Jews?

AB: Not just Jews. There was a lot of hate and lying propaganda directed at Germany during the war from many quarters besides the Jews.

LB: Yes, one could hear people talking about the Huns...

AB: That tends to be forgotten.

LB: And there were undoubtedly probably (60) organisations similar to the [modern] Socialist Workers Party pushing it in this country. They would certainly go along with it. I guess they’re totally opposed to people like me you see, but I’m not a fool; I know what the last war was about.

AB: What was it about?

LB: What we were talking about: the effort to destroy Germany through miscegenation and mongrelisation.

AB: I wouldn’t dispute that certain Jews wanted war with Germany but not all of them, surely?

LB: I wouldn’t have thought all of them.

AB: A lot of bankers, perhaps? People who make profit out of war? A lot of people who, for their own reasons, wanted to see Nazi Germany destroyed.

LB: I wouldn’t implicate all Jews in this, I really wouldn’t.

AB: Just the leaders?

LB: Yes.

AB: Do you think that Jewish leaders are any more corrupt than our leaders?

LB: Well, this is a very difficult one...

AB: You mentioned Jewish media control.

LB: Yes.

AB: To what extent do you think the Jews as such control the media.

LB: Do you watch television?

AB: About three hours a week.

LB: If you could sit it out for one day, look at all the credits; you only have to look at the faces really, but look at the credits, look at the themes. It’s the whole pattern. Really the Talmud mirrors it: the hatred of Gentiles. It’s a difficult one but there’s no question about it. The fact that immigration is completely one-sided, completely. There is never a programme...I did one in Bradford about 1976, [with] Ronald Bell, you remember, the MP. (61) Afterwards the editor said to me: It’s thirty-three years since we had anything on immigration, on the other side of it. And it’s fifteen years on now, and we’ve never had anything on it.

AB: But when you say the Jews control the media...

LB: Well all the big chaps control it: Conrad Black (62) from Canada the Telegraph. The Mail’s got Jewish people at the top. Murdoch.

AB: Murdoch? He’s not a Jew.

LB: Yes, his mother was a Jew.

AB: So does that make him a Jew?

LB: Yes, the father doesn’t but the mother does.

AB: And then there is, or was, Maxwell.

LB: Maxwell.

AB: There’s a recently published book, I don’t know if you’ve seen it, called The Jewish Image In American Film which would be very embarrassing; it was published about three years ago. (63) Apparently at one time there was only one goy studio in Hollywood. But do you think Jewish influence in the media today is a strong as it used to be?

LB: Yes, I believe so. The themes are so bad as they are on television. Some of them are so bad either because of the sex, the raw sex. (64)

AB: Do you think this is specifically Jewish?

LB: Yes. Either unpleasantly sexual, or, there is never any genuine feeling or sentiment in it. [Struggling for words.]

AB: But is this a specifically Jewish trait, or aren’t Gentiles equally to blame?

LB: I do suggest that you take a dip into the volumes of the Talmud; try the Gittin or Hallah or Sanhedrin. It’s terrible.

AB: You’re a Christian, right?

LB: Yes.

AB: So you believe in free will?

LB: Yes, I do.

AB: So if ...

LB: I’m totally opposed to Salman Rushdie; I’d have deported that man.

AB: And let him get killed?

LB: Other people could have protected him; he wasn’t one of us.

AB: What I’m trying to say is, there is an element of free will in this; the Jews can’t control everything personally because there aren’t that many of them. There are a lot of Gentile pornographers as well. You can argue that the Jews started it all, and I’m quite prepared to believe that, but what you can’t do is blame it all on the Jews.

LB: But if you get these magazines, these so-called girlie magazines: they’re mostly controlled by the Mafia, which is mostly Jewish.

AB: I wouldn’t go along with that. (65)

LB: Wouldn’t you?

AB: There are a lot of Gentiles there as well.

LB: There are some, I agree.

AB: A lot.

LB: Yes, but the fact that there are...I don’t approve of it at all with Gentiles.

AB: The point is, the fact that the Jews started it...certainly the Jews started communism; (66) the tendency is for anti-Semites to blame them for the spread of communism, but you can hardly do this with any justification because they didn’t do it all by themselves. The leaders may have been, initially, but a lot of Gentiles jumped on the bandwagon.

Even to this day a lot of the leaders are Jews, Tony Cliff as he calls himself of the Socialist Workers Party.

LB: Gluckstein.

AB: Yes, Ygael Gluckstein; (67) no wonder he calls himself Cliff. But although there always have been and still are a lot of Jews involved with communism, (68) there have been and are a lot of Gentiles as well.

LB: I think they’ve climbed on the bandwagon.

AB: So you can’t really blame the Jews, can you?

LB: Did you see the article in the Standard about two nights ago?

AB: No.

LB: They printed pictures of the five top media moguls; you really ought to see it.

AB: Who are they?

LB: There was of course, Michael Grade.

AB: Winogradsky.

LB: Yes, Winogradsky, and, I can’t remember them all but I have the article here.

AB: Does that mean they control it?

LB: Yes, they say so.

AB: You saying that will be construed as anti-Semitism, but when they say it...

LB: As a matter of fact, my remark was it’s a nasty bit of back-biting and worse – it’s gossip. They have the pictures there, they describe them all, working together. (69)

AB: What do you think about the State of Israel? Do you think it has a right to exist?

LB: Not there. Not there.

AB: Where then?

LB: This is the difficulty, but if they had to start their own state, it wasn’t very clever of them to start it in somebody else’s. And it certainly wasn’t very clever of us to go along with them. I know that we’ve struggled it, (70) but they would be in the Middle East and they would be on the main route to the Cape.

AB: This is another thing. I don’t think there can be any question that the Jews, more specifically many Jewish and Zionist organisations, have played the Holocaust for all it’s worth. They’ve extracted a lot of tea and sympathy, but Israel has become a bit of a pariah of late in much the same way as South Africa. You can’t dispute that.

LB: I think the extraordinary thing about Israel is that she cannot manage her own finance; (71) that she has to lean so strongly on the Americans for ten billion, on the German reparations. Doesn’t this strike you as a reason for causing a holocaust about everything?

AB: It might indicate that the Jews don’t control the money to the extent that you believe they do.

LB: I think it’s mismanagement, I have for a long time, but it could be made into a very funny joke.

AB: Israel has been variously condemned as racist and fascist. The way I see it is that although the Jews may well have started this madness, it’s come back to haunt them. You can’t really dispute that there was a great deal of persecution of the Jews in Russia under communism?

LB: But the communism was their own, they started it, and of course the Russians fought back. They brought it on themselves.

AB: Since 1917, Jews have suffered varying degrees of persecution in Russia, surely?

LB: I’m not saying persecution is right, but don’t you think that people are going to get up and shoot or bomb or whatever?

AB: The point is that Jews were involved on both sides, so does race come into it?

LB: They’re not a race; we had all this at my trial. I still maintain that they’re not a race. But what could the Jews expect? They’re not going to have it easy if they torment people in their own countries. They can’t expect anything else. This business of “Oh, that’s anti-Semitic” – that’s not going to get them anywhere. It becomes a sick joke. If you criticise me, I say, just a minute, you’re anti-English.

AB: What do you see as the future for Britain, and for the white race?

LB: We’ll fight. We’re not just going to accept this. You wouldn’t expect us to. But I don’t believe in violence any more than perhaps you do.

AB: Your opponents do. They have stated uncategorically that they will stop you from even addressing the people by whatever means necessary.

LB: Yes, I know all about this. They must do what they want. We don’t have to accept what people coming in here say and do. We are the original, and we have our innate right to live here.

AB: Can we talk a bit about usury now? This is another issue into which people always manage to drag the Jewish Question. You told me earlier that you don’t know a lot about economics, but you are obviously aware of how the money rip off works.

LB: Yes.

AB: The way credit is created out of nothing? (72)

LB: Yes, and people don’t like it.

AB: They don’t understand it.

LB: They do better now, but they don’t like it. They understand what’s happening, and nobody likes to be burdened with debt like this.

AB: But again this is not a Jewish problem is it?

LB: It is largely. They started it.

AB: Ah, they started it. When were the Jews expelled from England?

LB: 1290.

AB: When did they come back?

LB: Well they came back but they shouldn’t have done?

AB: Yes but when?

LB: Sixteen something.

AB: Under Cromwell?

LB: Yes, and Cromwell was a commoner and had no right to let them in.

AB: So who controlled the money system when the Jews were out of the country?

LB: I don’t know much about it, I wasn’t there and my history is pretty bad.

AB: There was usury in Elizabethan England though, you can’t blame the Jews for that. (73) Now you’ve got banks which are not controlled by Jews any more than they’re controlled by whites; instead they’re controlled by vast, raceless, faceless conglomerates. Race doesn’t come into it; banking is a racket, isn’t it?

LB: I think it’s a racket but I can’t really discuss this because I don’t enough about it. All I say is our children and grandchildren are being left an appalling legacy as the result of usury.

AB: Not just our children and grandchildren, but everyone’s. Usury affects both Jew and Gentile, the Third World has been especially hard hit.

LB: Yes but somehow or other the Jews are involved in it as a profession, and it’s handed down to their offspring more comfortably than it is to ours.

AB: All our offspring suffer on account of usury though.

LB: Yes.

AB: Jewish businesses go bankrupt.

LB: Yes they do, every now and then.

AB: Maxwell did!

LB: Isn’t it shocking, just think of him sitting on the Mount of Olives. Do you think he killed himself?

AB: Yes.

LB: I think so too. I had the feeling that his wife and son, all his children knew exactly what was going to happen.

AB: You told me before you’ve had blacks and Jews come here.

LB: Yes I’ve had the odd black because I’m very interested to know whether the Sun’s figures were accurate. (74) I did a bit of polling of my own.

AB: Is there a story about that golliwog on your shelf?

LB: Only the fact that two chaps made it for me, two young men who apparently approved of...well, I don’t have to tell you that if you go into any pub in Yorkshire or Lancashire, sit down and listen; they’re absolutely at the end of their tether. And Dewsbury is another particularly. There’s trouble nearly every Saturday, rampaging Asians. One wonders if that Siddiqi is behind it.

AB: What do you think of Siddiqi? (75)

LB: I think it’s potty of him to come here and stir things up, saying they must have their schools, they must have their mosques everywhere.

AB: Don’t you think that’s right? Don’t you think they should have their own schools?

LB: No.

AB: You don’t?

LB: No. No. You see, the Pakistani parents have been sending their children back to be educated in Pakistan. And an Asian told a friend of mine in Southall that they never had, and do not have any intention of staying here. In the meantime, look what it’s doing to us. We were bleeding to death, the amount of money they’re sending back to their own countries.

AB: A lot of the younger Asians want to break away from their traditions which they consider repressive.

LB: Look at that man who was stabbed to death. I remember some months ago I was in Glasgow and a young chap, a Glaswegian, had married an Asian girl, had a little boy I think it was of three. (76) And he was going to have another baby, and he came out at about half past five in the afternoon and he was dead on the pavement within about ten minutes. Asians set on and killed him.

AB: They don’t like miscegenation either?

LB: No they don’t, they’re very strong on this, they don’t like intermarriage.

AB: I’m surprised you are opposed to Moslem schools.

LB: Why come here and make trouble like this. They complain that you [Christians] have Christian schools, Jews have Jewish schools, why can’t we have Moslem schools? (77) This is Apartheid if you like. This is upsetting our social order.

AB: But the reality is that they are here, so why shouldn’t they have this sort of voluntary apartheid?

LB: They’re not here permanently, according to them, so why should we have all this trouble? Somebody said the other day, the greatest gift the coloureds have given us is to laugh at us, life has become so easy for them. They just have to raise a finger, and if they can’t [get what they want] they just have to complain, and if they can’t have it, that’s racism. I call it: that’s blackmail! Life for the ordinary chap in the street, and I’m surprised you don’t agree with me, it’s become hell, because the black chap always gets what he wants because that’s racist if he doesn’t, and the racist is the white who’s got to take a back seat.

AB: I think there are a lot of people [of all races] who don’t get what they want.

LB: Not them, they get the money for their mosques, they get it for their community centres, they get it for their old people...anything you can think of. If you follow the local papers like the Huddersfield Daily Examiner or the Dewsbury Recorder, any of these papers, if you look at it, the amount of money spent [on non-white minorities] is colossal. Black lesbians get it; there’s a battle royal going on in Newcastle at the moment because they’ve given black lesbians money.

AB: How many black lesbians are there in Newcastle? There can’t be that many.

LB: I think there are; we’re getting them in London...

AB: This is the homosexual lobby at work though.

LB: Yes, but black lesbians...let’s be honest, I’m not a lesbian. (78) There are black teachers’ groups getting together to talk politics; what the hell’s going on? You see what I mean? When the police call at their group meetings to try [to] keep the peace, they’re foolish enough to leave out the people who object to it, they should get them in on it and say look, there’s Jane Birdwood, she doesn’t like multi-racialism, let’s look at her viewpoint. But my viewpoint is never considered, and I wrote to Imbert (79) and told him until you recognise the rights of white people in this country, you’re never, never going to get any peace. And the crime is roaring up, isn’t it?

AB: Crime is a very complex issue, there are no simplistic solutions for rising crime.

LB: It’s partly racist, if you like, to use that word.

AB: I’ve no doubt that there is a racial element in it, but people talk about rising crime as though it’s an homogeneous entity. There’s no simple cure for rising crime.

LB: Well, I think there is. There is a strong element, blacks are bringing in huge quantities of drugs; I’ve heard a lot about this, they’re coming in via the Pakistanis, via the Turks, via the Indians, via the Colombians...

AB: And by whites?

[Ie white Britons.]

LB: There are always collaborators of course, people who have lost their jobs, they can smell money, and of course they join in. We can be corrupted as well, we’ve never had so much corruption in this country.

[We returned to the Jewish question and Lady Birdwood showed me some cuttings from the Jewish Chronicle. Predictably the paper devoted large tracts to the Holocaust.]

AB: It is a bit of a standing joke, this survivor racket.

LB: It is, it is. Is that the 7th?

AB: Yes.

LB: That’s the one where it says I’m not to be prosecuted, isn’t it?

AB: [Reading from a press cutting] “Police praised in race hate probes.”

LB: It’s getting stronger and stronger, and there is a clampdown now, we’ve already got all these race acts, and now they we’re to have another one, and who is doing it? The Board of Deputies?

AB: What do they want? Do they want us to love them?

LB: They simply say that it must be stopped, this anti-Semitism, what they call anti-Semitism. I simply say it’s anti what the Jews are doing. You can tell they’re mixed up in it, that they’re behind it, because their interest is so great. (80) Now we’ve got this chap, what’s his name, from Pinner...he’s still at it there.

AB: [Reading from a press cutting] “Angry scenes as Lady Birdwood is convicted on ten race hate charges.” There’s a very unflattering photograph of you here. “The leaflets she held or distributed were an attempt by her to counter what she saw as an attempt by Zionists to mastermind the destruction of the English race by encouraging multi-racialism.” [Laughing].

LB: It’s true, I don’t know why you laugh at it, it’s true. Why would they...you read this, you see that they’re sharpening their teeth now over anti-Semitism and so-called racism, and they say they’re great chaps because it’s they who are doing that.

AB: You didn’t distribute the Holohoax leaflet, did you?

LB: No.

AB: It says here that when you were convicted, elderly supporters screamed that you had been tried by a kangaroo court. Were they largely British National Party members?

LB: No, no, no, they weren’t. Bernard Levin described them as rubbish or something, you see. We’re not rubbish at all.

AB: I went to one of your remand hearings at Horseferry Road [Magistrates’ Court] and at one point, outside the building, somebody shouted “He’s for the gas chamber, that Jew boy!”

LB: Really?

AB: I felt more than a little uneasy because I thought he was talking to me. (81) Do you find these people an embarrassment?

LB: Shall I tell you something? You’d be interested. I was picketing the BBC.

AB: When was this?

LB: I’ve been doing it for ten years now; I turned up with three colleagues so we don’t make a riot. The police never bother us. I was standing dishing out leaflets and suddenly a man came towards me, and he came right up to me and he said: I hope you die in the most terrible agony of cancer...or something, and I said: Thanks very much. He moved away to speak to the head commissionaire at the BBC, who said: She’s perfectly at liberty to stand here. He [the man who had abused her] came back, shouted at me: You ought to be gassed, Lady Birdwood! And I had a row of builders sitting on the row of steps behind me, and two cab drivers behind me on the edge of the kerb. And you should have seen the expressions on their faces.

They shouldn’t do this; I’m only trying to protect my country. He’s a Zionist who probably has no interest in this country beyond making mischief. See what I mean? It was stupid of him to say this.

I’ve had a string of young boys phoning me, and they say: There are those who call you anti-Semitic, Lady Birdwood. And I say: Yes, because they don’t know any better. And I would like to say to these people: Who the hell do you think you are to ring me up and make these remarks, because I am trying to defend this country. If this were a fully fledged war, one would be obliged to go out and fight, not now at my age of course, but one would have been proud to. And if I can’t do it any other way than by running a paper...

AB: What sort of circulation does Choice have?

LB: Now, it’s about twenty-five thousand.

AB: How does it go out?

LB: It goes out by mail. No, a lot of them do of course, everyone [who wants one] gets a copy, then they can have as may as they want, and if they like it, they support it. They’re very good about this. I prefer it funded like this; I don’t want to go cap in hand to what’s his name in Libya, (82) or go to the King of Saudi Arabia and ask for money.

AB: There have been rumours that other right wing groups have, is that true? (83)

LB: I think some people have done, yes. Well, if they can’t do it any other way, they will try.

AB: I think it’s hypocritical of some of them though because they are obviously anti-Arab.

LB: Not necessarily.

AB: A lot of them are, yes. The British National Party and company make a song and dance over Palestinian rights but they don’t really give a stuff about Palestinian rights. (84)

LB: I think it’s what we are about, the underdog...

AB: It’s not because they like Palestinians but because they hate Jews.

LB: Well, it could be.

AB: The Palestinians aren’t fools though.

LB: I’m certain there is an element of this, I’m sure of it, You have to take one side or the other just as a matter of interest.

AB: What was the other campaign you were involved with besides Choice?

LB: I ran this English Solidarity, but Choice is the newspaper end and English Solidarity is [was?] the sort of action end. I didn’t pursue it at the time because I thought the moment wasn’t right for it.

AB: When was this?

LB: Eighty-nine.

AB: You’ve been involved in other things as well: the Anti-Common Market League?

LB: No, I was in the World Anti-Communist League. I represented Britain with somebody else for several years. I went to Brazil and Washington.

AB: Is that still going?

LB: Yes, I think so.

AB: Who runs it, the Saudis?

LB: Not to my knowledge, I’ve no idea [who’s running it now].

AB: I don’t know much about it. (85) I read about the WACL in Searchlight once, and it was branded anti-Semitic. It’s strange how all genuine anti-communist organisations are branded anti-Semitic.

LB: It’s like I said, it’s just a cover word, you can go that far and then you’re an anti-Semite because your curiosity’s been aroused, and we need to get round that somehow.

AB: You’ve had a few anonymous phone calls but you haven’t really been...

LB: [Interrupting] I’ve had many, when I stood in Fulham in the [bye-election] and in Bermondsey in that bye-election, and at various times...I get people ringing up, very obscene. Some argue and argue but I never lose my cool, and I win.

AB: You’ve never had the Mossad come round here and warn you to stop distributing?

LB: No, I haven’t. They interfered with somebody I knew and nearly killed him. That was disgraceful. That’s the nearest I’ve got to them.

AB: One other thing, when I phoned you before you said: Don’t let’s talk over this line. The reaction to that from most people would be: There’s that dotty old woman again, but in reality you know and I know that anyone who is politically active in Britain is bugged as a matter of routine. With the technology that’s available now they can bug literally thousands of phones at any time.

LB: Yes, that’s true and I don’t care to tell anybody what I propose to do.

AB: This happens to the left as well of course; the state always regards organised political groups of whatever persuasion as a threat.

LB: Yes, especially anybody who pokes their head out and says something different.

The first interview appears to end here.

**********

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